-Hi, I'm -Eric Ford for Made Here.

-Director Gaelen Kilburn -from Burlington, -Vermont, examines -both sides of decades long -hunting and land management -issues in the film Coywolf.

-Coyotes thrive in Vermont, -but opinions of the animal -as a pest linger.

-The film examines all sides -of this contentious topic -and brings new focus and -insights to the conversation.

-You can watch Coywolf, -and other great Made Here -!

films streaming on our website -and through the PBS app.

-Enjoy the -film and thanks for watching.

-The smartest wild animal -in our woods is the coyote.

-Period.

-It's so adaptable.

So.

-Oh, my God, it's incredible.

-One person actually told me.

-It's like, -you know, at a dinner table.

-!

You can't talk about religion, -politics or coyotes.

-Because it become -such a heated topic.

-I was warned -by some biologists -that I wasn't -gonna get -any coyotes on my cameras, -!

because there'd be that worry, -and and they were.

-But they were right.

-And they believed -it was accurate.

-And whenever I -use cameras in a new area, -that's the first thing I get.

-I get these and these coyotes -just running away -as fast as they can.

-You can't see them -in the forest.

-They're to camouflaged.

-You know, -I can't even spot them when they've taken off, -when they hear, you -know, twig snap or something, -and they're gone.

-I can't see is a coyote -is constantly living on edge.

-It's on the verge of darting.

-It's on the verge -of being scared by anything -because it's learned, -you know, through the years -!

and the generations of coyotes -that there's a lot of things -out there to fear, -and in particular humans.

-Difference with the coyote -!

hunting is that it was sort of -maybe the most -prominent example of, -like, fault lines -emerging within the hunting -community over hunting -and the ethics of hunting.

-The journey, as I understand -it, started in the Midwest, -undoubtedly in response -to the persecution -campaigns.

-And that's the end of another -one of Canada's -most troublesome pests.

-So any coyote -with two brain cells to rub -against one another decided -to just pack their bags -and get out of dodge.

-We were avowed -to white coyotes -off the face of the earth.

-Before we had ever done -any scientific evaluation -at all.

-A federal bureau -called the U.S.

-Biological Survey -presents itself to Congress -and to the American public -as the solution -to the predator problem.

-And their solution, -of course, -is mass killing of predators.

-By the middle of the 1920s.

-The US Bureau of Biological -Survey is putting out 3.5 -million poison baits -a year in the American West.

-And so they actually get -Congress in 1931 to pass -an act called the Animal -Damage Control Act -that gives them $10 million -for ten years -to exterminate coyotes -from North America.

-And they create a laboratory -called the Extermination -Methods Laboratory.

-I wish I was making -this up.

I'm not.

-And then they launched -a public relations campaign -with stories like this -went a long way towards -kind of brainwashing -!

whole generations of Americans -about predators.

-American scientists -like Aldo Leopold -were beginning to discover -the role that predators -play in the natural world.

-And so in the late 1930s, -the Biological Survey -!

and the Park Service are going -to send two brothers out -into the field to finally do -scientific -natural history work, -to try to figure out -what coyotes eat.

-And basically to prove -that coyotes are -the arch predator of our time -and need to be wiped out.

-One of the brothers, -Adolph Murray, -spent four years -working in Yellowstone -National Park studying -the coyotes in Yellowstone.

-And in 1940, he says, well, -I have to conclude that -coyotes don't harm -bighorn sheep.

-They don't harm -pronghorn antelope.

-They have no impact -on the population -dynamics of mule deer.

-They have no impact on the -population dynamics of elk.

-In fact, what coyotes eat -rats, mice and rabbits.

But.

-He said one morning he -was standing by a game trail -in Yellowstone Park, -and he saw a coyote -trotting down game trail -about 100 yards away.

-And as he watched it, -!

he said he could see its head -making a sort -of a strange motion.

-Up and down, up and down.

-And as it got closer to him, -he realized -as he stood motionless, -watching this coyote trot by, -that it had a sprig -of sagebrush, -that it was every few feet -tossing up into the air -and catching in its mouth, -and then trotting along again -and tossing it up in the air -and catching it again.

-And as he watched this animal -disappear down this trail, -he said, what -I realized I was observing -was an animal that -was in love with being alive.

-You know, the first -coyote ever killed in -Vermont was in 1948.

-Right.

-And so they weren't even here -like New England and gecko.

-Youre still in the -mid 20th century.

-They're not like -some historic animal -that was part -of the ecosystem.

-They came from the West.

-The, the teeth -had the skull morphology -are more like wolf -than the western coyote.

-!

So were you to hold an eastern -coyote -skull -and a western coyote skull, -the teeth that the eastern -coyote skull looks more like -it's got some wolf in there.

-Distance from New Hampshire, -for example.

-So kind of gives you a sense -of the size of a coyote skull -from New Hampshire.

-And this one here is, -I believe, from Alaska.

-Yeah.

-I think we just lost a tooth, -but on no we didnt its -just dust.

-So it gives you a sort of a -!

sense, for for the difference, -you know.

-When I was doing my research -in the late -90s, people -were taking in their basement -and show, -!

like, coyote pelts on the wall -or something, right?

-And some of them were huge.

-And I said, -I worked with wolves -with red wolves -when I was in college.

- They aren't that big.

- I mean, they max out -maybe 80 pounds, right?

-But, so the 80 pound wild -dogs, pretty big dog.

-And, and -especially when it gets puffy -in the winter, it's going to -seem like about 550 pounds -if you saw it at dusk.

-And so it's like -!

they take me in their basement -and it's like, wow, -I know just from being -around wolves that isn't like -these little 30 pound things -running around Wyoming -like, that's a big dog.

-And and then more people -would tell me that they felt -they were eating -a lot of deer.

-!

You know, and then these days, -you talk to people.

-!

It's like if you shoot a deer, -you don't find it -immediately.

It's gone.

-!

Like, a coyote would just come -in and clean it up.

-It's not like -it's like the old days -where you can, like, -find a deer in the morning, -like it's it's done.

-They were running around -in packs -to an extent that -they weren't accustomed to.

-There was always a lot of -controversy just locally over -like why that is, is it true?

- Do you call them coyotes?

-Do you call them coydogs?

- Do you call them coywolves?

-All these little.

-And then it started to be -these rumors -that they were like hybrids -somehow, -because that's why -they were big.

-But this is all in the 90s, -right?

And, -so who knew?

-Well, -!

interestingly enough, by 2004, -an article was published -out of Maine that kind of -changed our understanding -!

of New England Coyotes because -they did genetic analyzes -of coyotes in Maine.

-And they're all hybrids, -wolf hybrids.

-And so it's like, oh, -that's interesting -!

because people, regular people -have been talking about -these coyotes being different -looking wolf-y having -certain kinds of ears, -having bigger bodies -and just feeling that -they were a different animal -than what we call a coyote.

-They interbred with -eastern Canadian wolves and -then and came down.

-And that's why -some of the biologists -I talked to would -!

joke about coyotes in Vermont, -the technical Latin name -being canus soupus -because they're genetics -are like soup.

-Like soup, alphabet soup.

-So, canus soupus.

-Running around the woods -of Vermont.

-I've got pictures of them -on the game camera -that if you didn't know -that was a coyote, -you'd think it's a wolf.

-I mean, -just the way they're built, -they almost like, -have a mane in the winter.

-They get thicker -hair down there -than their shoulders -and stuff.

-You can pick it out -in the pictures.

-There's a true story -about a farmer.

-I want to say, somewhere down -in Addison county -who saw a coyote, -out on his -!

fields, acting very strangely.

-So he thought, oh, -my God, that's a coyote.

-And is acting really weird.

- Probably has rabies.

- So he shot.

-Well, -he had the presence of mind -to submit the animal -to Fish and Wildlife, -where they analyzed -the contents of the stomach, -and they found out -what the coyote -had been eating, -been eating grasshoppers.

-So the leaping in the air -and the snapping wasn't -rabies at all.

-He was just eating.

-And so the first thing -they start to do -in their puppies -is they'll hunt insects.

-It's usually -the first thing they do, -and they'll eat berries.

- I didn't know coyotes.

- Eight berries off a bush, -but when I walk with them, -they'll they'll stop and -eat raspberries off a bush.

-The fact that they felt -killing coyotes helped -the deer population, right?

-Killing coyotes, -potentially kept people safer -!

because it kept coyotes, like, -scared of people.

-Right?

-Kept them out of, like, -your backyard sort of thing.

-And then number three -we have the right to hunt, -its Vermont.

Like, -it's like a freedom.

- It's like we can hunt.

- Don't tell me where to hunt.

-This is, this is.

-And Vermont is unique -in that respect.

-Right back to the division -of Republic of Vermont.

-Sort of like Constitution.

-Vermont grants -a lot of hunting rights.

-So they're not wrong on that -front in the sense -that it's it's really baked -into being a Vermonter.

-So one great quote I got from -a hunter in Rochester, -he was talking about like, -how much -meaningful hunting was, -how meaningful it was -in the context of Vermont -and growing up in Vermont.

-And he said, every Vermonter, -every Vermonter, -deserves -a chance to get a deer.

-I mean, what other state -could you put in that blank -and have it not sound like so -it was sort of like -it was like, -yeah, this is who we are.

-The hunters I talk to -!

and many other people as well.

-But keeping up the hunters, -they really didn't buy -into, like.

-The idea of, like, there -being, like, -a balance of nature.

-Again, they felt that -anything resembling -what we call the balance of -nature is like basically, -human created.

-A coyote -is a real success -story, and, I'm proud of it.

-Like I said in that document, -it is regarded -as the brightest, -most resilient, most -adapted animal on the planet, -and it's the least protected -in the United States.

-It's it's -a colossal embarrassment.

-We were -trying to influence the House -!

Committee on Natural Resources -and Wildlife -to create legislation -that would -require fish and wildlife -to have a season on coyotes -and give them a break -for part of the year.

-For sure.

-We we don't do that -to any other animal.

-So why is the coyote, you -!

know, public enemy number one?

-You know, -and so the question is, -how can we regulate -what goes on -to eliminate -some of this stuff?

-Well, -one thing we could do with -coyotes is to kill a coyote -by any means.

-Any time of day, -any day of the week, -any month of the year -is wrong.

-Period.

You wouldn't -do that to anything else.

-Why are we doing this?

-mm-hm.

-I think that's that's -my big question, is why?

-You know why -and why in a society -like ours, when most of us -feel the way we -do, why is it even permitted?

-I don't like -wildlife decisions -being, politicized -because the wildlife ends up -on the losing end of that.

-!

You know, it doesn't seem like -the biologists -have a problem with it.

-It's, -sort of -!

fringe animal rights activists -that I would argue, like, -!

are a little out of touch with -the reality.

-They view nature -from the outside, -looking in as, -as a non consumptive, -resource.

-As an indigenous person, -I really feel that there's -lots of strength to be gained -from animals in the wild -and to learning from them.

-You know, they've -!

they've empowered many people.

-And I think that -the more activists -spend time actually -connecting in the wild -with the animals that they -fight for, they they feel, -I think their spirits -very much improved from that.

-You know, -I grew up as a hunter.

-I used to be a bow hunter, -and I ended up wounding -two deer in the same season, -and that was it.

-I quit hunting -because I did not want to be -going into the woods -and inflicting -suffering on an animal.

-And later -that trip, I went out -and I spent every morning -tracking as if I was hunting.

-And I saw a coyote that was -asleep on a tree stump.

-And I just -sat there and watched it -and watched as -the sun came up in its body, -and it woke up -and shook off its fur -and went about its way.

-!

And I was just thinking about, -wow, I could have just shot -that animal.

-It's year round open season -and I was within 20 yards.

-And and instead, -I just got so much enjoyment -!

out of just watching it alive.

-And so that was the last time -I really hunted that season.

-And then as I started -spending more time -just tracking -and watching wildlife -and then became an activist.

-Like in -the early 80s, you know, -the animal rights movement, -Earth First movement, -radical ecology, they were -very strong -grassroots movements and -and so I got involved -with those.

-And that's what led to me -getting even more involved -with the illegal activities -and ultimately -carrying out actions -against animal research -laboratories and fur farms.

-Well, I had to be -76 years in prison.

-There's nothing that I regret -about that at all.

-Now, Vermont -is probably the state -!

with the most liberal nuisance -!

wildlife trapping laws whereby -if you just see an animal -!

and you believe it's impacting -your property, you can kill.

-It could be a coyote, a bear, -you know, a beaver.

-You know, that's a -that's perfectly legal -any time of the year.

-I quickly realized -!

that the attitudes that led to -the extinction -of wolves, lions, -lynx in -Vermont are still -!

very much prevalent and alive.

-And those attitudes -are directed towards coyotes.

-Now, I think there's -an element to the coyote that -that activates people's -emotions, -and people are apt to make up -stories and examples to make -their point about the coyote.

- That may or may not be true.

- I mean, I think -it's a generational thing.

-I think, you know, people -!

grew up despising wolves, and, -!

you know, they're taking their -they're taking their deer, -they're taking their meat, -they're taking their farm -animals.

-And so I think it's -kind of ingrained -in people's behaviors -about these sort of predatory -species, when in fact -it's really not a reality.

-People who really value them -are also very emotional -that they need to be, -you know, allowed -to be part of the ecosystem.

-People who hate them really -hate them and want them gone.

-There doesn't seem to be -a lot of room in the middle.

-Most hunters -find hunting enjoyable.

-It's not that they, -like necessarily -like killing animals.

-!

Just like most fishermen won't -say, the part about fishing -I love -is the fact that a fish is, -like, struggling and he's -going to die for like, 30s -while I'm rolling it in -which it is.

-And it's just to be honest, -I mean, so, you know, -that's -now what they talk about, -they talk about, oh, -I'm an entomologist now.

-I know every fly in the world -and I can like match names -to this and it -and they that that's -the intellectual pursuit.

-It's a physical activity -I can cast.

-I can drop a fly in a -pie plate 40 yards away -!

like they're, it's this whole- -and I'm out in nature.

-It's this whole river runs -through it -thing is what makes it feel -like a satisfying -outdoor experience, -not a suffering fish.

-Well, -the hunters most of the time.

-I would say a similar thing -about the hunting experience.

-Right?

-And as we know from research, -a lot of hunters know -a lot about the outdoors.

-The majority of people -do hunt them in the winter -just because of the snow.

-They stand out -more in the snow.

-And another thing, Vermont.

-You can hunt them -!

any time of the day.

At night.

-You just can't use a light.

-So a lot of times guys go out -when it's full moon on -snow, right?

-But what I like doing -is during the summer -when they are deadened up, -!

they won't go very far at all.

-Is go out a night or two -before you want to hunt them -and just call from the road -and don't make any noise.

-Just do one call -and you'll be able to tell, -yeah, there's one -!

there, there's one over there.

-And then, you know, just -take note of where they are.

-So when you go, -!

because they'll be right there - in Vermont, too.

- It's hard to hunt in Vermont -for deer.

-!

It's not like you're going out -in the golf course in Jersey.

-And the people who are -successful year in, year out, -they put in, they know -something.

-And it's a lot different -than taking a hike -on a long trail and like, -scaring a deer.

-Like deciding like on this.

-I have two weekends -a year where I can hunt.

-I don't have to work.

-And I'm gonna, like, predict -where I should go to have -a deer walk in front of me.

-Well, traditionally -you'd always hunted -or trap them in the winter -because when their hides -are the nicest.

-But I don't think -you could probably -give a coyote hide away now, -I know people do it -for sporting -to control the numbers, -but nobody does them -for hides anymore.

- I just like to hang them.

- I do them and hang them up -and they're beautiful and.

- Its a lot of fun.

- Its a lot of work.

- But it's fun.

- You got to enjoy it.

-Well, the thing -people don't understand them.

-Coyotes -and people don't understand.

-Yeah.

There are, I will say, -some Yahoo hunters.

-I just want to go out -and shoot everything.

-But for the most part, -the people I don't know, -it's hard to explain.

-People hunt animals not -because they just hate them, -you know, -they like to learn about -them.

And it's funny because, -people that don't -understand about the animals, -they don't get the hunting -and the, what's behind it.

-And it's more than -just going out -and trying to kill an animal.

-There's a lot more you spend, -because for your average -!

person, they don't get out and -spend all day in the woods.

-But there were some -glitches in their reasoning, -because killing a lot -of coyotes, -at least from the wildlife -!

manager's perspective, doesn't -reduce the members of coyotes -!

because they reproduce at a 30 -to 100% higher rate -when they're under pressure.

-So it's like biologists -will joke about, like coders -and cockroaches -will inherit the earth.

-All this kind of stuff -because you just did -not like wolves.

-You can't seem to like -kill off coyotes.

-They can live in a garbage -dump in Sacramento.

-They can live.

-Yeah.

-They found one -in Central Park.

-They all these things, -I mean, coyotes are -are just amazingly durable -and can like just live.

-And they reproduce, -at dramatically higher rates -if you start to try -to kill them off.

-I used to hear hunters -say stuff like, -you know, -!

one less coyote, one more deer - than they felt that.

- So, I mean, you can hunt -coyotes, you know?

-!

365 in Vermont, 24 hours a day -still and a lot of people, -if they're hunting -or any time, you know, -shoot a coyote if they see it -they just feel like -they're doing -a little service, -wildlife management service.

-And I was interviewing -a guy about deer hunting, -and then he was just -telling me that he, he shoots -every coyote he sees.

-Hes in his stand, a coyote -walks by and he shoots it.

-leaves it there.

-It's just what he does -to, like, help deer.

-And he was a very, like, -thoughtful guy.

-Like nobody would ever think -he was some, like, -bloodthirsty hunter.

-He's very introspective.

-He's one of these hunters -that sort of fits this -!

kind of like characterization.

-Most like -a real nature hunter.

-So you wouldn't think of him -!

as like, like, like a bad guy.

- And I was like, devastated.

- Like, you always do that.

-And you say, yeah, everybody -I know like, does that.

-And, you know, -I was like, -do you think that humans -!

basically have more of a right -to eat that deer -than a wild animal does?

-Is that -how you feel about this?

-Because it -felt like thats -what he was saying.

-and he's like, -hey, I guess, I dont -know.

-I was like, -I mean, -because obviously you can, -like just drive -down to the store -and very few people -live off their -hunting and supplement.

-But, I mean, you do have -another option, you know, -I mean, you know, and the -coyote really doesn't maybe.

-And, but I left his house.

-He said he wasn't going -to shoot coyotes anyway, so.

-!

You know, I look at the Bible, -I mean, once, -once you have, like, -domestic animals, -it's the wild dog -thing becomes complicated.

-Yeah.

-It's just going to be -an issue.

-I don't know of any place -where, like, wild dogs around -livestock housing -created a little bit -of anxiety about people.

-The state biologist said they -were just going to take the -lame and the -sick deer and kill 'em.

-!

They kill the porcupines.

But, -I've seen them take down -good, healthy deer.

-They don't care.

-It's whatever -they can cut out and kill.

-And, when they're killed by -a coyote, that's about that.

-It's a slow and painful -death for deer -because they hamstring -and they go from the back -to the front, and they won't.

-They'll start eating them -alive.

-They'll do anything.

-Coyote has no conscience.

-Best if they open -the hunting up a little more.

-Because -for every deer -I think we have, -!

I think we had 3 or 4 coyotes.

-We had lost a -bred Jersey heifer -about 4 or 5 years ago.

-I thought, well, than not -for four years ago.

And, -and there's no -kick backs -from the state for -things like that.

-So you eat that.

-There's less farms -because that -state of Vermont -!

does not want any small farms.

-They don't want thousand -cattle farms.

-And the family farm, it's -a thing of the past.

So.

-That's - way it's going to be.

- As far as coyotes -theyre just here.

-They articulated a real sense -of, like, -interdependence with nature -!

and expressed a lot of respect -for animals and nature -in general.

-Nature had to be healthy -for humans to be healthy, -and humans had to do their -part to keep nature healthy.

-If things go -too far off the tracks, then -something severe like -rabies will happen -and you'll lose -a lot of things.

-There was just a -a real, a real, collective -sort of like agreement that -people had to manage nature.

-!

So for me, it's not just about -opposing practices -like the year -round hunting season coyotes, -but it's about returning -towards a more mindful, -recognition of the role -that predators -play in a healthy environment -and ultimately, -and restoring -biological diversity -so that we don't have -!

to continue to interfere with, -with, with these animals, -you know, -we can -let them do their thing.

-The last Fish and Wildlife -board meeting -when a board member asked, -what is the most trap -species in Vermont?

-!

And the answer from the warden -was, well, -it depends on the fur market -prices.

-And, you know, the idea -that fur market prices drive -the harvest of wildlife here, -not sound management -practices or science is, -is just crazy.

-And the commerce of wildlife -is nothing -that should be accepted.

-It is a violation of North -American -principles -of wildlife conservation.

-But yet every state, -including Vermont, -allows it to continue.

-So the initial issues -I got involved in as a kid -was commercial whaling, -opposing commercial whaling.

-!

You know, I grew up in the 70s -when that was -the thing -that you were seen on TV -was these activists going in -little small boats, -putting themselves -between the whale -and the big whaling ship -and the harpoon cannon.

-And that, to me, appealed -to my sense -of stopping this injustice.

-So I got involved with that.

-Likewise, -is that industry was dying.

-One of its defenses was, -oh, we need to kill whales -for scientific research.

-And so it's ironic that -40 years later, -I'm working on issues where -trapping is being context -!

is a necessary biological data -collection tool.

-And and the trappers -are citizen scientists.

-And I -see it being the same thing -by virtue -of having a year round coyote -hunting policy -and not teaching people about -colonization of wolves -to Vermont, -we're making it really hard -for those species to return.

-It's a lot of it, -I think, has to do with, -!

a different culture of hunters -that are much more -reliant on technology -and don't do the ground -work, the hard work.

-People use trail cameras -now, people don't scout -as much as they used to.

-So you have hunters -that are going into the field -sitting in stands -or over bait piles -and they, -you know, they're going -to take an opportunity -to shoot the first animal -they see.

-Yeah, I think part -of my education -is, is having kids understand -that it's up to us to decide -who we live with and that, -!

you know, animals returning is -is up to our willingness -to coexist with them.

-You know, we've -seen the return of wolves -and beavers and elk to states -where they were extirpated.

-You know, -I want Vermont -to be one of the states -that sees the return of -species -that were previously extinct.

-You know, -I think that, -you know, -there's a lot of pride -to be had in a generation -!

that helps usher in the return -of the wolf and in the lynx -and the mountain -lion of Vermont.

-Today, though, -!

I am here with an organization -called Protect Our Wildlife.

-Vermont.

-To teach you a little bit -about coyotes.

-They wake you up -every night with the howling.

-Yeah, they can be loud.

-Their vocalizations -are pretty cool.

-They have a language -just like humans do.

-So it's a lot of sentiment -to change in an hour -long presentation sometimes.

-So I've had it -be as bad as, like the slide -where I ask what coyotes eat -and they go by bullets.

-So definitely some kids -who have hunted -coyotes themselves, -who do have that deep seated -hatred of coyotes -because they've grown up -that way.

-But I've definitely seen -even those kids -who start out that way, -at least asking questions -and at least -thinking about things -a little bit differently -and entertaining -a new perspective.

-And I think that's -where it starts.

-Ultimately, -I like the idea -of of rewilding in Vermont -because it involves -all stakeholders to, -you know, there's a place -for all hunters, -trappers, wildlife advocates, -everybody can be supportive -of, of, efforts to return -native species to Vermont.

-You know, -I'd rather see us working -together on issues than that -and always been polarized -on the issues that we're -you know, contentious over.

-I think that makes me -!

feel the best after those Fish -and Wildlife Board meetings -is when I come home here -and I see wildlife or -!

check my trail cameras and even -just spend time with my cats.

-It reminds me that -those are just some people.

-That's just some people's -attitudes towards wildlife, -you know?

-But it is changing.

-Now, I used to shoot coyotes -!

mainly over bait in the winter -and a little bit at night.

-If it was like a full moon -and you could see 'em, -but it was usually over bait.

-And then I went to a talk.

-Woman gave a talk on -living with coyotes at Yankee -Sportsmen's Classic.

-She just talked about -how their family groups work -and how if you eliminate -the adults, the younger dogs -might actually breed sooner -and that the population -response -to shooting them -isn't really what you want.

-So I basically kind of -!

did an experiment at the farm.

-I stopped shooting them and -I just kept track -because at the time -I was shooting them, -had at least three, -maybe four family groups -that would talk at night.

-I mean, it was pretty active.

-So I just stopped -shooting them.

-And over the course of, -I would say, -like the next ten years, -I would keep track where -I deer hunt, which is right -beside basically where -I was hunting the coyote, -big track of land.

-So nobody was like in there -with dogs -running them or anything.

-And it went from pretty -typically havin, -you know, -a couple dogs at a time, -you know, multiple dogs -!

behind a deer track.

To, like, -now, now you have, you know, -single dog or just a pair.

-And they seem to be -more interested -in the snowshoe hare in -!

the swamps than tracking deer.

-!

I think they're opportunistic.

-If a deer is wounded -or something, -I don't see where they're, -I've never seen where they've -really taken down a adult -healthy deer -supposedly left alone -without us mucking stuff up.

-Predator and prey are -supposed to reach -some sort of equilibrium.

-And their population -will guide off each other, -you know?

So -that being said, you know, -maybe we should be better off -if we left some of them alone -in areas and, and really saw -how that worked.

-Right now -what I see happening, -which I worry about.

-And I'll go public with this -as I worry -about the increasing -polarization of people.

-You know, there's -the people on the right.

-People on the left.

Theres -the people who love predators -and the people who hate -predators.

-There's the people who -want to manage -all the woods, and -there are other people who, -you know, like myself, -who want, -!

you know, a fair percentage of -the woods to be left alone.

-And we've got to -find a way to work together -that's all.

-Yeah.

-Divided.

We're conquered.

-Anyway.

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