[MUSIC] Good evening, and welcome to Kentucky tonight.

I'm Renee Shaw.

It's good to be back with you for Kentucky tonight.

We appreciate you joining us this evening.

Our topic the housing shortage in Kentucky Kentucky needs more than 200,000 housing units, according to recent analysis, to meet the demand.

And it will only get worse.

There are predictions the state will be 287,000 units short by the year 2029.

Single family home and rental prices have increased sharply over the last few years, and the state had about 5800 homeless people in 2024.

During this 60 day legislative session, Kentucky lawmakers are considering policies to ease the housing crisis.

And we're going to talk about some of those ideas tonight.

We have some of those lawmakers with us, along with other housing advocates and interest groups in our Frankfort studio.

We welcome State Senator Robbie Mills, a Republican from Henderson, Senate Majority Caucus chair and co-chair of the Kentucky Housing Task Force.

In our Lexington studio, we're joined by Wendy Smith deputy executive director of housing programs at the Kentucky Housing Corporation, J.D.

Chaney executive director and CEO of the Kentucky League of Cities, and State Representative Joshua Watkins, a Louisville Democrat and member of the Kentucky Housing Task Force.

And in our studios in Louisville.

State Representative Susan Whitten, a Republican from Louisville and co-chair of the Kentucky Housing Task Force and George Eklund director of education and advocacy at the coalition for the homeless.

We appreciate all of them for being with us tonight.

And of course, we want to hear from you.

You can send us your questions and comments.

By X. Formerly known as Twitter, at Pub Affairs KET or send an email to KY Tonight at Keturah or use the web form at Keturah Jessica KY tonight.

Or you can simply give us a call at one (800) 494-7605.

Well, thank you to all of our guests for being here.

We had this program scheduled last week and Mother Nature had different plans.

So we appreciate all of you being accommodating and adjusting your schedules to be with us.

We're going to kind of break a little news tonight, Senator Robby Mills, because a few hours ago, around 130 this afternoon, you presented and filed your House Bill nine.

And I want you to tell us about that bill.

And then we're going to kind of go back a little bit and talk about the task force and other recommendations.

What does the measure do that you filed today, sir?

>> Well, Renee, thank you so much for having us on tonight and talking about housing.

It's such an important issue across the Commonwealth.

Today, I filed Senate Bill nine that actually gives local governments a couple of tools to work with their local developers to hopefully get housing starts going again in their communities all across Kentucky.

And basically what Senate Bill nine does is it creates what we're calling a residential infrastructure development district, which actually gives local governments the power to issue bonds to pay for infrastructure costs.

One of the things that in our housing task force that we heard is that there might be developers sitting off to the side and not developing property because of some of the big, larger costs that are involved in infrastructure water, water lines, sewer lines, pumps that take water to and from the the streets, gutters, curbs, all those things are huge costs to a developer that they have to put into a piece of land before a house can actually be developed as a subdivision or a single lot.

So this bill gives that tool to a local developer to negotiate with the with the local government and makes those costs paid upfront.

Another thing that it does is it creates what we're calling housing development districts.

And this also gives local governments the ability to negotiate with developers in their community and helps them possibly rebate back some or all of the property tax for several years after the house is built.

We really think that these two tools put in the right hands of local government to do what's right and best for their area could very well see several hundred new homes built over the next year and be compounded over over time where we're we're we'll be adding hundreds of homes in the future.

>> J.D.

Chaney you're with the Kentucky League of Cities, and I know you have a good partner with counties, and you've probably heard a little bit about House Bill nine.

What are your initial thoughts about it?

>> We appreciate, Senator Mills for carrying that piece of legislation.

It's something we worked as a broader coalition on with with the Kentucky Chamber of Commerce, the Home Builders Association, and others, because it really identifies what one of the key obstacles are to to housing development, and that is infrastructure, infrastructure costs.

It's a big impediment for us.

It has a it has a much outsized role in in what's holding holding it back.

We have caps from the division of water with, with regard to connections and things of that nature.

But this is a great tool.

It's worked well in Indiana and I think it'll work well.

A similar program, I think it'll work well here.

And it's about partnerships.

At the end of the day, it's about the state being partners with their local governments and making community based decisions on how this will go.

>> Representative Whitten, what are your thoughts about this?

Any downsides to this idea?

Do you see?

>> I really don't see a downside.

I think this is wonderful.

I'm really excited about Senator Mills bill.

Just like JD said, this has been done on the the Residential infrastructure Fund has been done in Indiana for the last 3 or 4 years with incredible success.

And as somebody who lives in Louisville, who, you know, competes with Indiana right across the river, I'm seeing the fruits of that infrastructure fund that they have taken advantage of.

And I really want Kentucky and Kentuckians to take advantage of of what Indiana has been doing the last couple of years.

So I'm really excited about it.

>> Wendy Smith what are your thoughts?

We should follow Indiana.

>> Fresh for me.

Yeah, but we were a big proponent of the residential infrastructure fund that Indiana has and that the task force looked into.

My one concern with this is small cities might have a hard time setting up, you know, kind of a complex structure and the bonding and just wanting to see how they get some technical assistance to make sure they're able to make it happen.

>> Right.

Representative Watkins, your thoughts?

>> Well, I think it's I like it.

It's what I'm going to consider like I'm going to compare it to like having ice cream.

What's more than one scoop of ice cream?

What's better than having two.

So I think it's really great.

I want to see more done in the realm of housing.

I want us to see more on funding some more developments.

I love the tools that we're giving local governments, but I believe that the work in the task force has proven that we need to spend a little bit of money in the Commonwealth to make sure that we're getting the supply we need for everyday people.

>> Before I go to Mr.

Ecklund, I want to go back to Senator Mills and ask, you know, to Miss Smith's point about how would this impact smaller businesses or smaller local governments and cities who may not have this kind of template with something like that be provided to help them get off the ground with this kind of idea?

>> Yeah, I think we can actually take this.

You know, she's exactly right.

This is more geared toward larger developments.

You know, the infrastructure, the residential infrastructure development district is required, a $5 million investment on five plus acres.

But I think we could actually shorten this down to smaller rural communities that are looking to add a street of 15 homes or a smaller 25 home development.

The interesting thing about Kentucky is our geography is so diverse.

We've got small communities that need homes like Henderson County, but we haven't had a lot of homes built and we just had a large development come in in the last couple of years, and they've seen a lot of success.

I also represent Webster and Union County, which if they had a couple of streets developed of new homes, that would be that would be a Boone to their community.

So I think, you know, this is step number one.

This bill costs nothing to our budget.

I think in the future you're going to see some budget language where we're asking for money for affordable housing and for for a revolving loan fund.

But these development districts are free tools that local governments can have that want to negotiate and work with their developers.

So, you know, I'm wide open to trying to customize this to fit a smaller community as much as it does a larger community.

>> Mr.

George Eklund there in Louisville, tell us your thoughts about this.

Where do you stand on this particular provision and Bill?

>> You know, I think this is a really important piece of the puzzle, like when we look at the entire housing continuum where we have rising homelessness, we have people that are struggling to find places to rent.

We have people that are struggling to find their first time home buyer option, like we need to look at the friction points along the housing continuum and really cater policies to address those.

How can we grease the skids?

How can we reduce regulation?

How can we incentivize?

How can we get more housing subsidy to build more units that more waitresses can afford, more pre-K teachers can afford, and more medical professionals can afford here in Kentucky.

So I think this is an incredibly important piece of the puzzle, especially when you put it in context.

The whole task force and the recommendations that they put forth.

>> Yeah.

Thank you.

Didn't mean to cut you off there.

And let's talk about some of that regulatory reform.

And maybe Representative Whitten can can join in now because we know these bills are still being filed.

There's still some time to do that.

What other ideas do you have from a regulatory perspective that you may file or that you know could be filed this legislative session?

Representative Whitten sure.

>> When we were talking in the in the task force, yes.

When we were talking the task force, we really tried to organize the the the bills in mainly three buckets, like planning and zoning, building codes, regulatory and inspection and then the funding piece.

And so I'm I'm still working on a couple bills that that address both of those that address the planning and zoning, and then one that addresses the building code piece.

One is is kind of adjusting the building code to, to make multi small multi-family buildings more affordable to build.

Because that is a big issue is that when when we are overregulated and our developers and our builders, when everything costs more to them, those prices are going to go towards Kentuckians and they're just going to pay more.

So if we can, while obviously while keeping everything safe to try to deregulate a little bit and, and be able to build less expensively than, than that's what we're going to try to do.

>> Representative Watkins, do you have any concerns about regulatory reform that perhaps it would affect the quality of homes?

>> Absolutely.

I do, and I think we're hearing from some of our other trades professionals and public safety professionals.

I immediately go to firefighters, for example, and there's a bill, I think, that talks about single stairwells and whatnot.

And I want to be in favor of all tools in the toolbox.

But when I think about having a building potentially be six storeys high and not having to have another exit point, I think about a firefighter rushing in and a person running out in the stairwell.

To me, that that already gives me anxiety just saying it.

But even deeper than that, in some of those places you have to have a specific type of truck to a ladder truck to get to some of those higher buildings.

And some of our cities and small cities and counties can't even afford to upkeep the vehicles that they have right now.

So that is a thing that comes to mind.

And from my local government experience, I believe that regulations should be adaptable.

But I think that sometimes if they if they're done too quickly, they can sacrifice quality and safety.

>> What are your concerns?

>> J.D.

Chaney on the on the regulatory.

Regulatory front, we are working collaboratively with Representative Whitton on some of the planning and zoning reforms.

We've we've been an advocate for our local governments to look at their individual land use policy.

It's so intimately local land use law here in Kentucky.

And as Senator Mills pointed out, every community is different.

Every demographics, geography and things of that nature.

But our local governments are looking at those things.

Many of them have already allowed high density development in places where it's it's a good place we want to do we want to be a partner.

But at the same time, you know, there's reticence with regard to trying to do a one size fits all when Kentucky communities are so are so diverse.

But I think we can we can work through work through some of those issues in order to to address that for best practices.

And we're seeing what other cities cities are doing generally.

Does that get to the affordability issue?

Probably.

Probably not as well.

I mean, just removing regulations is a small piece of the puzzle.

You're probably going to see higher, higher income developments be developed.

It's a small piece of the puzzle when we're dealing with construction costs, financing costs, labor shortages and infrastructure.

Like we mentioned before, that should be done again on a mainly on a local level.

>> Senator Mills, I want to I want to come back to you because today during your press conference, you know, you talked about renters who are paying 1600 and $1,700 a month in just rent.

And the affordability issue is probably crucial to this discussion more than anything else.

I'd like to get your thoughts on that.

And does your bill really address the affordability concerns?

>> Yeah, I mean, it does it does.

Because, you know, when people actually own a home, they're building equity in a home.

I think that makes them good, better citizens, that makes them connected more to their community.

So that's what this, you know, my bill does is hopefully will make homes available, whether they're single family homes, duplexes, triplexes something that people can actually own a part in versus renting.

I think some of the frustration of the housing challenges that are out there right now is that, you know, rents are going up.

The people that are paying the rent aren't making any equity in that property, and they just kind of feel like they're dumping their money down the drain.

So, you know, if we can move people to homeownership, I think that's a great step.

You know, we we do need rental property, reasonably priced rental property.

But in order to have that, you know, landlords have to make a profit.

They're seeing costs increasing as well.

Property taxes are going up.

Building costs are going up.

Repair costs, you know, heating and air, electrical, all those things are rising.

So it's a unfortunately it's a perfect storm.

But I think if we can move people to homeownership, I think that starts making people think that their money is going somewhere.

And that gives them a better feeling about, you know, what they're paying for housing.

>> George Eklund I want to come to you and ask you about the affordability issue, because perhaps some of the population you deal with, they are not even thinking about owning a home.

They're just trying to maintain their their rental space.

Right.

So talk to us about where you see the conversation needing to go when it comes to affordability.

>> Yeah I think for us like every day I talk to case managers that are trying to work to get people that are homeless back into housing.

And I can't tell you how many times that they run into barriers that they're navigating by through the application process, but also they just cannot find places that a voucher will cover.

We see Louisville having some of the fastest growing rents in the country, and every time we see the average rent go up $100, we see a pretty noticeable increase in homelessness by 5 or 6%.

So at the end of the day, like we are looking for more units that we can rent for, you know, 800, $900 a month where we just don't see those on the market.

So like anything that's going to increase supply of rental options, that I can use a voucher to get somebody that has been, you know, a victim of domestic violence, somebody who is trying to go to college but cannot afford the rent, somebody who is trying to maintain sobriety but just needs a place to to call home a foundation stone, if you will like.

That is what we need at the end of the day here.

And so any policies, any initiatives that are going to increase supply for those that are earning the least amount in our communities, that's what we need from my point of view.

>> Yeah.

Wendy, I'd like to ask you your thoughts on this.

>> Yeah.

Thank you.

Renee, I want to just piggyback on what George has said, and it relates to what Senator Mills has talked about.

This is a part of a continuum, a housing continuum or housing market, however you want to think about it.

And that connects from homeowners all the way down to people who are at risk of or experiencing homelessness.

And it all gets back to supply.

So any of these bills that will contribute to more housing being developed, that is a good thing.

So that might range from, you know, regulatory barriers being stripped down to funding to financing options.

We really need everything.

There's not 1 or 2 solutions that are going to get at this.

It has got to be kind of a menu of all options on deck, because when homeowners do have options that they can afford, they're going to free up a rental unit for a middle or upper income person who is no longer going to rent the unit.

They really didn't want that, then pushed out a lower income person, and so on and so on.

There is a filtering up and down when there's plenty of supply.

People can filter up.

When there's not enough, they filter down and they spend more of their income on housing that isn't even meeting their needs.

So I just think it's really important to think about the array of solutions that the legislature is proposing, because we really need an array and not 1 or 2 solutions.

>> Representative Watkins, last year you filed a bill to use some of the money in the state's rainy day fund to address the housing crisis.

It was called the Kentucky Housing Opportunity Act.

Are you going to file a similar bill?

Or maybe it's already been filed and I just don't I'm not aware of it.

>> There are several pieces of that bill that have already been filed, and I really appreciate what Wendy is saying here about the array of options that we really need.

And I agree, I want to give a debt of gratitude to I call them co-chairs, Mills and Whitley, because I think the Housing Task Force was an informative experience for me.

But we do need to do more.

I think George would like to hear this.

On the homelessness prevention side, there was a part in the Kentucky Housing Opportunity Act that added a homeless prevention fund to the tune of $2 million.

Where would we pay for that?

Well, we have billions of dollars essentially sitting in a piggy bank.

And if we have a lot of that money, I think Kentuckians are wondering, what are we going to do with it?

And if there isn't a rainy day like a housing crisis, then I don't know what a rainy day is.

I also want to highlight just a few other things, if I may.

A House Bill 159 by Representative Adrielle Camuel and Representative Roarx that talks about helping seniors and people with disabilities age and stay in their places, what we call aging gracefully.

I also want to elevate House Bill 426 by our Minority leader, Colonel Pam Stevenson.

It's a renter tax credit.

So for every renter out there that is making qualified payments on their rent, that gives them up to $1,000 back, and who wouldn't want that as a renter are starting out?

And lastly, I'll just talk about the bill that I filed.

That's House Bill 229.

That's the $100 million affordable housing loan fund.

We talked about a lot of options that we need.

This is directly giving money to the Kentucky Housing Corporation to expand on the great work that they already do to build those housing needs that we have all over the Commonwealth.

And believe it or not, that is an urban problem just as much as it is as it is a rural problem.

I have in my district alone, people graduating from college can't buy a starter home.

I'm a realtor.

Starter homes being up to $300,000.

Who can afford that?

So we definitely need to spend a little bit more and I think we have the resources to do it.

>> So on that last item that you mentioned, Governor Andy Beshear mentioned during the state of the Commonwealth and Budget address, a recommendation of a one time, $150 million investment into the Kentucky Affordable Housing Trust Fund.

So you're you're backing that down a little bit from 150 to 100 million.

>> So I think the governor, the governor knows the Commonwealth really well.

And so he shot out with $150 million to the Affordable Housing Trust Fund.

And and I'll say Governor Beshear knows best.

We supplemented that for lack of better words because the funds do actually two different things.

His is a direct injection of what we need right now.

Ours is a revolving loan fund.

So instead of either or, why not both?

>> And Wendy Smith.

>> I mean, I would love all of it.

It'd be great.

But I really do think one of the most important things would be to create, whether it's seated at Kentucky Housing Corporation, which we would love to do that or elsewhere, something that revolves that does not rely upon regular budget appropriations, but an investment fund that we might charge a little bit of interest on, and it would revolve back and forth so that it can be evergreen.

And we really do need some programs like that that can self-fund and keep going.

>> Representative Whitten, I'm curious about your take on what you heard Representative Watkins offer and does should money from the Budget Reserve Trust Fund, or i.e.

a rainy day fund, go toward the Kentucky Housing Corporation?

More perhaps?

>> Well, we're we're we've just started looking at the we just started looking at the budget.

Our our first draft dropped last week.

It is a again it is a first draft.

And so it is pretty bare bones.

And so I think that there's going to be a lot of conversations about about what the budget's going to look like going forward.

But I did want to talk.

I really wanted to kind of circle back.

Most everybody has talked about it, the continuum and the multiple, the multiple options that we have.

There are options that I have.

You know, I think that Representative Watkins talked about starter homes.

I've got a bill that affects planning and zoning that deals with smaller lot sizes for new developments, that, paired with Senator Mills infrastructure bill, would work perfectly together.

Because you've got the ability to build these, you know, what we call working family homes.

And a lot of the concern that I'm hearing is there are communities that don't want these, these communities built until the infrastructure is either already covered or has a plan for.

So I think that both of those bills working together is really a perfect answer for for what we need because we're looking for really our our sweet spot is the is the the missing middle, the working family home.

>> And Representative Whitten, when you were last on this program a couple of months ago, I think we talked about this when the task force was kind of wrapping up, and you had mentioned that nearly half of the existing homes in the state are more than 45 years old, and you had made a recommendation that you might work up a bill to offer tax credits to individuals who are restoring a home that's at least 50 years old.

Is that a part of your plan this time?

>> That that's absolutely something we're working on.

That's called the Historic Rehabilitation Tax Credit.

It is a fund of $100 million that we have had for several years.

And we're just trying to to change.

My bill is going to really going to make that better.

It's going to number one.

It's going to incentivize the the incentivize and and prioritize housing.

You're going to give that little extra kicker of tax credit for those developers that are choosing to incorporate housing into their rehabilitation.

And it also helps.

Right now there is a portion that is used for owner operated and a portion that is used for commercial.

A lot of times that owner operated is is not utilized.

And so we're going to change that to be have the funds fully fungible so that every year all of those tax credits can be used to take these urban infill and, and make these, you know, these buildings that are in our cities that that have not been used, make them into, into residential properties.

>> And one of the things we often hear about after the program is done is, what about helping those who are 65 and older get a little relief on their property taxes?

Right?

Because oftentimes people who are in that age category on fixed incomes and they've already maybe paid off their house, but they never really feel like they own their own home.

Right.

Tell us what you think about that idea.

>> Sure.

Senator Nemes has a bill that would, I believe, freeze the property tax for Kentuckians 65 and older.

It would need to be a constitutional amendment.

So it would be something that would need to go on the ballot to be voted on.

But I think I think that's a that's a great idea.

We have to talk about it and make sure that, that the local governments who who get a lot of their money from property taxes, we need to make sure that our local governments are taken care of.

But that's certainly something that I'm hearing a lot about from my constituents.

>> Yeah.

J.D.

Chaney I'm going to come right to you on that.

Yeah.

You knew that one was coming, right?

>> Yeah.

Senate bill, I believe it's 151.

I think Senator Nemes has passed that through the Senate a couple of times.

We've we've been not adverse to that.

From what we hear from our senior residents at all, because Kentucky has something called the compensating tax rate.

And so if, if that comes off the rolls, if a constitutional amendment was approved to extend that homestead exemption for for 65 and older and those that are disabled, then the compensating tax rate adjusts.

And so it's not a revenue loss type of proposal.

So I think that's that's something that probably should get some due consideration.

If you're looking at seniors.

>> Yeah.

George Eklund I want I want to come to you because we know that our population is aging.

And of course, housing costs are something that they are increasingly more concerned about.

How do these ideas resonate with you, particularly homestead exemption for seniors over 65 and those who have disabilities?

>> Yeah, I think those are worthy policies to really look at and see.

Like, is it time to modernize those?

Is there is it time to kind of really look at the the amount in the exemption that that is there and, and bring it up to, to today's standards?

The other piece of this I think is an opportunity is looking at what happens when a senior gets behind.

Like right now, there is a whole industry of people that come and buy tax liens, and that is a lien that they put on the property, and they have ten years to collect that lien.

And that puts, you know, seniors in a in a bind where they have an out-of-state company that is sending them mail.

That's saying that you owe us all this money.

We're charging all this interest.

You know, I think that there's a path for local communities to figure out how can we space these payments over the course of the year, not just all in in April, and not put seniors in a bind like that?

So I think that is another avenue of like addressing the concerns of seniors that are trying to age in place and retain that asset that they can pass on to their families.

>> A lot of head nodding here in the Lexington studio.

Miss Smith, what do you think?

>> I think it's really just as George said, it's worth looking into.

How do we help seniors maintain their affordability?

I want to also offer the flip, which is that we have a really significant generational divide around affordability in this country and in this state.

What I mean by that is that younger households who are just renting their first house or trying to buy their first house, are facing a far steeper climb than those of us who might have bought a home a long time ago, and that that divide is getting broader and broader.

The average, excuse me, median age of a first time home buyer in the United States is now 40 years old.

That is stunning.

That means families who are starting to have children aren't even considering it because they can't afford it.

And the amount they are spending.

The median homeowner in the US spends 47% of their median income to afford homeownership.

So I think it's really important while we're thinking about seniors, that we also think about younger households who are not getting a foothold in building wealth, in having a stake in their community, and that it really is important to balance both.

>> And I remember when I was in the home buying market many, many years ago, it's like it should not exceed a third of your take home pay, right?

As opposed to 47 something percent.

That's quite a bit.

Senator Mills, I want to come back to you just to kind of put a pin in where we were, because we got this question from Richmond to you, is the intent of Senator Mills bill that developers will build lower cost housing?

They ask, will there be some requirements for builders to build that type of housing to ensure that they are not simply profiting from the infrastructure subsidies of higher cost housing?

>> Right.

Well, we would hope that that lowers the price of the house.

But the beauty of the of my bill of Senate Bill nine is that that's going to be negotiated with the local government.

So the local government wants to put some requirements in there that, you know, this this development needs to needs to hit the $229,000 mark or the $250,000 mark or their, you know, X amount of beds.

You know, that can all be negotiated out.

What that community needs to fit its, you know, to fit the housing needs that are the most prevalent that the local government sees, that is most prevalent.

>> So this comment while we've got you, Senator Mills Martin rivers from Lexington, had this comment because we reported on your bill on our nightly newscast earlier today, 630 he says, per Kentucky edition earlier tonight, developers can avoid paying property taxes for up to five years per this bill.

If I consider how much I pay in property taxes each year, it far outstrips the tiny income tax rollback I've been given by the legislature over the last several years.

Why should average citizens not view this as yet another giveaway to developers?

While average citizens pick up the tab?

>> Yeah, well, this I mean, once again, we're trying to incentivize developers to to put a house in the ground so that rebate back to the developer is actually encouraging them to build a home so that people can live in the community and the community can thrive.

I mean, these property taxes, whatever is negotiated with the developer and the local government, but will return back to the local governments after that 5 or 6 year period that's negotiated.

I just think it's a win win to get people into the community, to build a house and to live there.

>> J.D.

Chaney these are Senator Mills is right.

These are property taxes that aren't being paid, and it's going right into the infrastructure that's used to support support the housing.

So it's it's not, you know, a Boone for developers.

It's about the infrastructure development to support that.

>> And some of viewers still.

Oh go ahead, Senator Mills, I.

>> Think and I was going to say in that infrastructure, you know, continues on, if we're talking about water pump stations, water lines, I mean, those are feeding multiple homes, not just one specific house and not just benefiting a developer.

You're talking about multiple families that could be their livelihood, could be improved, you know, by this developer getting off the sideline and investing his money to build homes for Kentuckians.

>> Jeff Sims from Caldwell County asked this question what protections exist for Kentucky taxpayers, cities and counties against shady developers taking infrastructure or incentive dollars and not completing the promised projects?

Our protections included in the different pieces of proposed legislation.

Senator Mills, I'll come to you for that.

>> Yeah, I think the the the payments, the incentives would be paid over time once the development is done, that's when those incentive payments would start.

So the house would have to be built, the homeowner would have to be in the house.

And whatever the other local government governments want to put in place, negotiate with the developer as a backstop to make sure that those homes are built.

The infrastructure is put in place and and nobody is shortcut.

>> Mr.

Cheney have anything.

>> To add?

Local governments can still do performance bonds and and other tools locally that exist right now to help guard them on those on those contracts.

>> I want to go back to you, Representative Witten and Louisville, and ask you about a bill that's going to be considered in committee tomorrow.

I think it's House local government.

It's House Bill 333.

One of your colleagues has filed this bill that would allow Kentucky's religious institutions to put affordable housing units on their property.

Tell us about this.

And was this one of the recommendations that came from the Kentucky Housing Task Force?

>> It it is, yes.

It's Representative Pollock's bill.

It's something that we that we did talk about during the during the housing task force.

And it's something that that I'm supportive of, I think that we've worked a lot with, with George and his team as well as other legislators.

And we've we've really kind of finessed it to make sure that it is not going to interrupt the, the, the nature and the, the personality of these individual communities that these churches might be in.

That's not our intent, but we understand that this is a great opportunity to provide a low cost, additional housing in our communities.

And and don't forget, you know, the the you know, for the last two years of our task force, the, the the main thing that we talked about is that we are over 200,000 units short.

And so, you know, supply, supply, supply.

So everything that we are we can do to increase supply, and we're going to look at those options.

And again, like Senator Mills, if we can bring the infrastructure along, because we do know that when you increase supply that it does cause people to to have a little concern.

And so that's why I think that a lot of these bills work so well together.

>> Yeah.

And I want to go to your, your colleague there in the studio with you.

George Eklund.

What do you think about House Bill?

333 she mentioned that you were very supportive of this measure.

>> Yeah, yeah.

House Bill 333 the bill, the yes in God's Backyard bill is just a bill that's trying to empower churches to develop housing where it's strategically and appropriate in our communities.

And most likely, this is about a church who has an old school school building that's been closed down.

And rather than let that that building be just demolished by neglect, let's make it an asset.

Let's make it a place where seniors can live in close proximity to their house of worship.

Let's make it a place that can be more about building a community, not just an eyesore that that sits there.

I mean, in my community right now, in my neighborhood, there's a church that is interested in building and developing their old school building into senior apartments.

That's what the bill is about.

I completely understand some concerns about local control and making sure that housing is developed where it's appropriate and where it's strategically needed, and that is a lot of the safeguards that we put in the bill is about making sure that it's along main commercial corridors, that it's along state primary highways, that it is a budding commercial areas.

So I think it is a very narrow piece of legislation that's just about starting the conversation to increase supply across the across the Commonwealth.

>> And if people didn't catch that, you said, in God's backyard, is that what we call it?

J.D.

Chaney what's your thoughts?

>> We're very, very thankful for Representative Pollock's work with us.

I think he has a committee substitute tomorrow.

It's going to expedite the the planning and zoning process with with, I think, the local government giving consent to to bypass that normal approval process to to kind of expedite that.

So we're really thankful for him for working with us on that.

>> Mr.

Ecklund, I think I may have cut you off there, sir, if you had more to add.

You're good.

Okay.

When you have these distances, it can be hard to judge.

Like when I can't see you face to face, I think.

Yeah.

Go ahead.

Wendy Smith.

>> Yeah.

I just wanted to offer an example.

So George talked about an old school building on a religious property.

Let's say it's 50 plus years old and it has some historic attributes.

Well, that could pair with the changes that Representative Whitten is talking about with the state historic tax credit, so that that could help fund it.

They might come to us for affordable housing trust fund dollars to make sure some of the rental units were deeply affordable for poor Kentuckians.

Right.

And I'm just trying to give an example of how there may be multiple ways different bills go into one project to make it feasible.

>> Right?

Right.

That's a good example.

Yes.

Representative Watkins.

>> I'm a fan of yes, in God's backyard.

We talked about this in the task force.

I think one of the last times I was on the program, we talked about that.

And listen, this is really one of those yes.

And issues for me.

I want churches that want to get involved as a minister.

I think that's near and dear to my heart.

But I want to pause right, right now for a moment, just to to speak to some of the people who have been writing in, because I'm hearing something and I'm wondering if everyone else is hearing it.

Yes, we know we need supply, but people are concerned about whether or not they can afford it.

They are terrified out there.

I mean, back in the day when I was growing up, my parents used to say things were sky high and things are sky high.

Everything is up from utilities to groceries to health care and housing.

And guess what has not increased over the years?

Wages.

What people are taking home.

So that's why I'm saying yes and I love I agree with Wendy.

I totally support Senator Mills and Rep Whitten as well, but I. Think we also need to make sure that what we're building people can afford in a way to do that.

I think Wendy was talking about with with some of the dollars in the Kentucky Housing Corporation, you can make sure that whatever you're building goes to a certain group of people that can actually afford it.

And listen, people think affordability, you ask three different people, you're going to get three different answers of what affordability is.

But I will tell you what it is not.

It is not $1,600 for a one bedroom apartment.

That is not what affordability is.

And I think we need to start using real numbers when we're talking about that too.

>> Yeah.

Senator Mill have starter homes to upsize or right size right, to free up the starter home communities?

>> Yeah, I think, you know, we've got to figure out how to get people bump people up.

And I think we've you've heard it multiple times tonight about the housing continuum.

You know, we've we've got some ideas that hopefully we'll be able to release here in the next couple of weeks about first time home buyers, some things that maybe we can do to help them that really doesn't, doesn't have a big effect on our bottom line.

Government's bottom line as far as revenue goes.

But I think you're going to start seeing we're starting with things that don't cost a lot of money or zero money.

The regulatory reforms, tools for local governments to work with developers on.

And I think as we get closer to rolling out the budget, I think you're going to see some of these other ideas that I've heard folks talking about tonight, adding money to the Affordable Housing Trust Fund, which is, you know, Wendy can talk about this, but I believe of those 206,000 housing units that were short, 60% of those are in workforce housing that we need to do something about.

And also this Indiana program of this revolving loan, infrastructure loan program, that's something that we could possibly commit some money to.

You know, I'm committed from the work that we've done the last two years to really start asking our leaders, the budget leaders, both the House and the Senate, to put some money toward housing, and hopefully we'll see some of that come to fruition for everybody across the continuum.

But I think if we once again, if somebody bumps up out of a starter home into a medium or larger size home, that frees up a starter home for somebody that wants to build equity, move out of their apartment, build equity in that starter home, then that frees up an apartment that might be able to be rented to someone who's homeless right now.

So, so important.

All the all the pieces of the puzzle fit together.

And it's a complex piece.

That's why professionals do housing all the time.

It's, it's it's always an ever growing situation.

But we've just got to get off off of off of stop and get moving forward.

And Kentucky I know people have been working on housing for many, many years, but we need to put an extra effort behind it.

And that's what this task force was about.

And hopefully that's what this program is about tonight to motivate people, maybe to call their legislator and say, hey, we'd like for you to support these ideas.

>> Yeah, Wendy, let's pick it up with you again.

>> I just want to, like, take a moment to say, well, I agree with Representative Watkins, I want more.

I want to see stuff faster.

I'm really eager.

We have never seen so much housing legislation proposed last year I thought was the most.

And it was in a budget year.

This year we have even more.

And it sounds like there's more to come before the session closes out.

And we have legislators who have committed to a task force who are talking about housing in very rich and intelligent ways and and bringing this array of possible solutions.

And so I'm just very hopeful, you know, time will tell what makes it through the whole legislative process.

But this is a change in Kentucky that is I'm glad it's happening.

You could say it's overdue because many states have been doing really aggressive action on housing, and we don't want them to get too far ahead of us and be the ones that get the jobs and get the population.

So I'm very happy to see so much happening in this session.

>> So from Ricky and Fayette County, this question, Will the God's backyard bill discriminate against specific religions, or will it be inclusive to all?

Representative Whitton, I'll come to you for that.

>> I do not believe in any way how it could discriminate against religions.

I don't think that it's even part of the bill.

I don't think that any religion is even is even qualified in the in the bill.

>> Yeah.

We we took a look at the concerns around fair housing laws and fair housing protections.

So the if the church goes to a market rate like commercial enterprise, like they still have to abide by all fair housing protections, and that includes religion in, in our community.

So I appreciate the concern, but we we have really looked at that issue carefully.

And you know, I think we are we are good to go on that issue on that part of it.

>> I think if the if the religious institution qualifies under the IRS code as a religious tax exempt institution, it could qualify if it met the other criteria.

So it does define it as a as a qualifying IRS institution.

>> Right.

Representative, I want to go back to you, because I know last year you had filed some legislation regarding two evictions.

Right.

So can you talk to us a little bit more about that?

I think Representative Watkins also is a coconspirator in that perhaps, but I'll start with you first, Madam Chair.

>> Yes, yes.

Thank you.

Yes.

This year I filed and it's House Bill 338.

It involves eviction, expungement and minor protections.

It it expunges the evictions when the evictions have been dismissed.

So it's really just it prevents it takes down the barriers that thousands of Kentuckians have to deal with every single year.

So it's we we talked about it.

We were in we were we were able to be in front of the judiciary with this bill during the interim.

So we had some really great robust conversations in that committee during the summer.

And I'm we're George and I are actually working on that on that together.

We've got we've been talking to the clerks about some of their concerns.

We've talked about the Apartment Association and we've listened to their concerns.

And so we're making some changes.

And so we're excited about putting a committee substitute in soon and hopefully hearing it in committee in the next couple of weeks.

>> Before we go to George, I want to ask Representative Watkins, what's your take on this?

You on board with this version or you want to wait for the committee substitute before you?

>> I always love to see a committee substitute, but I really have to celebrate Representative Whitten on this important piece of legislation.

And she knows this.

I've told her this privately as well.

But for those at home, I've been in real estate since 2009.

I've been a former property manager, whatnot.

I want to make this real.

If you have an eviction sometimes and you are applying for an apartment and you get, you know, a credit check and whatnot, if if a company or a landlord sees that you have an eviction on your record, they can up your security deposit.

Sometimes we know we pay one month as a security deposit.

Sometimes landlords are charging or companies are charging 2 or 3 months upfront simply because that's there.

And removing that, especially if it's been dismissed, is going to change the lives for so many different Kentuckians.

And I'm really happy to be a supporter of it.

Of course, I want to see the substitute, but I really want to celebrate this important piece.

>> And Representative Whitten mentioned about expungement, eviction, expungement and minor protections.

What does that last piece mean?

Representative, we need to go to you for that.

>> Simply that.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's simply that when when individuals are are writing a lease, a lot of times they are simply putting the individuals that live in that unit.

And a lot of times those are minors.

And so, you know, they're not thinking about if if they might go to, to eviction proceedings.

Well, unfortunately, if they go to eviction proceedings, the names of those minors are included in the legal document.

And that is not something that that we want.

We we never want to include minors in, in this type of thing.

So this would simply strike the minors name from, from the original record.

And that is part of the committee substitute that that George and I have been working on.

>> Yeah.

And I want to go to you, Mr.

Eckland, to give you a chance to really talk about this a little bit more and what you hope the final version will look like.

>> Yeah.

I mean, Renee, I'm so glad that you brought this up.

Like, this has been five years in the making.

We look at other states like Utah.

We look at states like South Dakota and Indiana who have done this measure as well.

And we you know, from my point of view, I hear this all the time talking about the barriers that they're navigating security deposits, application fees and evictions on people's records.

This is about giving people a chance to focus on what's in front of them, not what's in the past.

So this is really focusing on those cases that got dismissed by either the home renter moving out or paying up, or that the case was just dropped.

All parties agreed to that.

And this is about, again, just removing one of those barriers so that people can move and focus on what's what's in their future.

You know, we have 40,000 evictions in Kentucky, and that's a huge number.

That's largely because of our lack of housing.

It's not because somebody is deciding willfully not to pay.

It's we have a housing issue.

And unfortunately, those that are the least resources in our communities are the ones that are going through eviction court that are getting displaced and ending up homeless.

So I see this as really a as much as an eviction expungement bill as a homeless prevention bill, like we are trying to move people up that continuum that we keep on talking about.

And just removing this barrier is one of the most important pieces that we can do.

So I'm incredibly hopeful for House Bill.

338 I think it is a huge step for us and in the state to just make sure that we're focusing on giving people the tools and giving them the foundation stone that they can build their lives upon.

>> And, George, what we have you what is it that's missing or that we haven't discussed tonight or that perhaps is forthcoming to be filed that really would help the homeless population, in your view?

Maybe.

>> Yeah.

I think another piece out there is House Bill 411.

So this is about modernizing the State Affordable Housing Trust Fund.

The State Affordable Housing Trust Fund is geared for those that are earning 60, or those people that are earning 60% Ami and below, which is a really fancy way of saying, you know, workforce, people that are working, people that are pre-K, teachers, waitresses, customer service reps.

You know, there's a bill out there that would adjust the deed recording fee and the mortgage recording fee so that we're giving an additional $10 million every year to the Kentucky housing, to Kentucky housing to build homeownership opportunities and rental opportunities.

So that is another bill that's out there that I'm excited about this session, and I really appreciate the work of the task force.

I've it is heartening.

And I think Wendy said it like the the expertise that has been shown on this panel and in the General Assembly right now is incredibly heartening.

>> Yeah.

J.D.

Chaney, I want to come to you.

What what does city governments want from this perspective?

You all have lots of perspectives.

>> Lots of perspective.

There are a lot of good pieces of legislation.

I think it's extremely important that we not take steps forward and at the same time enact legislation that takes us backwards.

For example, we got to recognize that housing has shifted from just being purely shelter to being financial assets.

We've got investor owned, and the short term rental market certainly plays into that.

And we're considering legislation for the General Assembly is considering legislation that would allow for the proliferation without any local government regulation.

And it does impact the affordability of for for the working class to be able to afford homes that.

>> You're talking about.

Airbnb.

>> Well, it's Airbnb legislation.

It's the only short term rental company here playing in the in the legislative game.

And it takes it takes a long term rentals out of the market.

And it takes a single family residential property out of the market.

So we're extremely concerned about that legislation that would completely give a give a all, all, all access to, to short term rentals to without any kind of oversight or regulation from the, from the local government.

>> And they're not taxed.

Right?

>> Are they?

Well.

>> What kind of tax.

>> That's in litigation.

And it's in litigation with us.

In fact, in the Kentucky Supreme Court.

And I think they pay in some places and they don't in others, is what we've seen, even though these other short term rental platforms are are in compliance.

>> Yeah.

Senator Mills, real quick, we'll come back to you.

What's another bill perhaps that we're going to see coming from, from your caucus or from you when it concerns housing?

>> I really think that, you know, we've here here is an idea that that I was given actually by a developer that I think we'll see me file here in the next week or so is the assessment process, you know, when people are developing, like taking a larger piece of agricultural land and developing a neighborhood that those that lot would not be reassessed until a house is actually built on it and somebody actually moves into it.

Sometimes one of the costs of developing a neighborhood, a new development, is actually the increased property tax that the that the developer would have to carry that for five or 6 or 7 years.

That becomes an ongoing cost to that developer.

So you'll probably see that bill filed.

But I really just want to point everybody to the budget document.

I'm hopeful in the budget document that we're going to see several different infusions.

You know, it may not be the large number that maybe represent Watkins has in his bill, but we're going to see multiple.

We're going to see multiple streams of investment going in to housing all across the spectrum.

>> And so that's House Bill 500.

Right.

So we'll keep our eye on that.

And any supplemental bill that deals with one time money, perhaps it could come out.

And we'll be on top of that.

Of course, each weeknight here on KET with our program Kentucky Edition.

Just final word.

Representative Watkins, real quickly 30s on an idea we didn't discuss.

>> Sure.

Well, we're talking about building more housing.

I want to make sure that housing is safer.

So I believe that every new home and every new rental unit should have a smoke alarm.

So House Bill 326 does that.

>> Okay.

All right.

We'll be looking.

We've got a lot of notes that we've taken on all the bills and the bill numbers.

We're going to be tracking those.

And you can follow along because we'll do that on Kentucky Edition at 630 eastern, 530 central right here on KET.

And next Monday night we will talk about public education legislation.

Several bills are flying through the General Assembly.

Senate measures that deal with JCPS Jefferson County Public Schools and Fayette County Public schools.

And and we're going to talk about all of that next Monday night.

And then the meantime, on Friday night, you can make sure you turn back here.

You'll see Bill Bryant and a panel of working journalists talk about the news of the week, and they'll break down all of these issues before the Kentucky General Assembly.

Thanks for watching tonight.

I'm Renee Shaw and I will see you tomorrow night on Kentucky Edition.

Take good care.

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